Thetownend.com

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/w/west_ham_utd/8221590.stm

Disgusting...put's football in the gutter

Trouble is banning those involved will make no difference as they are not football supporters anyway

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/science-%26-technology/police-to-explain-why-they-stopped-football-fans-from--killing-each-other-200908262009/

that is duscusting i must say, especially the stabbing -

but i still think there is no way they can stop trouble happening in and around games

I think the Met are partly to blame for this. They have known of this fixture for 2 or 3 weeks now and the planning was absolutely shocking.

Sad to see however there are a few facts,

FACT: There was always going to be trouble at this game, it didn’t matter how many police were there and looking at pictures it was under policed.
FACT: The West Ham fans did not attack Millwall fans inside the ground they jumped on the pitch goading like morons but wasn’t exactly “disorder” in a violent respect,  because they were not fighting on the pitch, just a pain in the back side and got excited. I didnt see the West Ham fans charge at the Millwall fans (however I could be wrong). Kenny Jacket said his players did not leave the pitch just stepped aside.
FACT: Most of the people causing trouble, did not have tickets to the match and therefore were not in the ground, Millwall away fans have to be registered with the club and cannot travel unless they have an away day card so any trouble was outside the ground not really inside.

A man was stabbed, unfortunate and why someone would bring a knife to a football match is beyond me. Compared to previous encounters between the 2 teams this was relatively peaceful in comparison due to only 10 arrests (so far). This one case of disorder is not the 70’s or 80’s and is an isolated incident between two hated rivals who have not played each other for years. Football is not returning to what it was as according to the news.

Someone I work with is a West Ham supporter and was at the game and said it was a great atmosphere inside but outside the trouble was kept to one area as opposed to all over the place. He feels the media has sensationalised the story as it sells papers etc. but he did say most of the problems were caused by West Ham fans after Millwall fans were in a pub singing about Calum Davenport who was stabbed on Sunday Night.

Well West Ham should be ashamed....Leeds are no Angels but didnt steep that low last season when Millwall went to Elland Road.....never liked West Ham...been there a few times with The Town and not once enjoyed the experience.

Fucking hell.

I didnt realise they were filming Green Street 3.

Where was that Tommy Hatcher cunt? And the Major?

Its been a tough few days for WH, the trouble last night, Callum Davenport getting stabbed, then Jack Collison losing his father in a motorbike accident.

that has to be one of the worst hooligan scenes since the 80's when it was really bad...

dont know if any of you have or did watch the doccumentry on BBC about the england hooligans in the 2006 world cup. over 3,000 were banned and still trouble happened every night when england fans were there. An ex Stoke Hooligan said on there teh only was to stop trouble at football is by cutting all mens arms and legs off between teh age of 16-40.

by that im trying to say i dont think the police will ever get the upper hand over the stupid idiots that cause trouble in and around football matches at places such as: leeds, west ham, millwall, stoke etc

This might hinder the England 2018 WC bid of which a decision will be made in December.

People get so outraged by FV but absolutely lap it up when it happens.

FACT: gazza's facts are not facts

Indeed.

If it was such a good atmosphere why they fuck were people leaving before the end of the first half?

Nothing wrong with a bit of high spirits now and again.

Gazza you twat

 :D

People took their kids and moaned when it all kicked off. If I had a kid I wouldn't be taking them anywhere near that sort of match.

As I said last night, you shouldn't have to expect this would happen but you would be very naive to not expect it.

Also Fred knows how to deal with gobby little shits How old are you? 13?!! Get to fucking bed then

Si, we had Ralphy to protect us so it was all good :D

I found it hard to believe that Magicroundabout (being a local and all) seemed to know where the Red Light district was, and not where the fucking ground is

I'd imagine the only reason it didn't kick off inside the ground at the end was a massive police presence keeping the Millwall fans in the stand. The West Ham fans that invaded the pitch at the end (at least a 100 of them) were doing everything they could to get things to kick off.

Shit like this is totally unacceptable and they need to take quick and heavy action against the clubs. Whilst I'd agree the trouble makers aren't true football fans they are associated with the club and hitting the club hard is an easy way to target them. By punishing the clubs it takes it out on their decent fans who in turn will take it out on the trouble makers and so help to stop them from doing it again.

Oops :) Fucking spastic, That said, Hadn't seen a video where the West Ham fans made it to the other side of the pitch...

hahaha


Forgot about that !

 Ralphy, The club dictate the amount of police presence that they require not the other way round. So are they to blame that the sub human fuck wits organised this fight about 20 minutes after the fixture was announced? did they order the brain dead fuckwit to stab someone? did they tell the mongoloids in the crowd to invade the pitch?No is the answer. The blame lies souly with those wankers who have dragged football back into the gutter.  

i blame the fun pubs.

i bet danny dyer was shitting himself.

in the words of samdy gray - "propah nawty"

millwall steamed the queens pub at about 6pm, thats how it all started. my friend said it was carnage.

these people are proper football fans, they go week in week out, they just like causing trouble too.

Phil Thompson was shitting himself and he was watching on a TV from the comfort of the Sky studio.

it was always going to kick off.maybe not to the extent that it did but trouble was inevitable.it was deffo not a game to take kids and women to,so why people are bleating about it i dont know?both west ham and millwall are equally to blame and thier lads will be loving todays news coverage.

football hooligans are back with avengance now.cocaine and lager has seen to this.they aint necking e's anymore so thats why it's kicking off all over the place.

priorities Tans.

One guys account of what happened inside Upton Park..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/westham/6092739/Violence-that-ruined-West-Ham-v-Millwall-Carling-Cup-tie-disturbing-and-upsetting.html

As Mex said, there was trouble outside the Queens Pub,also the Boleyn Pub and the police stopped
the Tube,with fans having to walk to the ground from several stops away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvEedjL8dwY

The thing that i cant understand, is that all police and FA are acting as if they wernt expecting anything bad at the game

What exactly makes you say that? There were hundreds of riot police in and around the ground, and Millwall's allocation was significantly reduced. It's obvious that the police were expecting trouble, the only question is whether or not they took the right measures to try to prevent it.

As for the FA, all I've heard from them is that they intend to lauch an enquiry, which says nothing about whether they expected trouble or not. What I find hard to believe is the amount of people who took their young children and were surprised when there was trouble. Unbelievable.

Even if no trouble occurred a hostile atmosphere was always going to happen.

A lot of people have mentioned the naivety of people who took their kids to the game, but the whole point is that they shouldn't have to stay away from the game for fear of trouble. A caller on 5live made a very valid point last night when he asked whether he shouldn't cross the road with his son "just in case" they get hit by a car.

The majority of people shouldn't be made to avoid something because of a minority few. If those dickheads wanted to beat seven shades of shit out of each other they should've done it somewhere far away from the ground rather than impart their neanderthal ways on those who just wanted to go and enjoy watching a game of football.

I agree that it shouldn't happen, but it does, and it was always likely to last night

The reduced allocation was probably a bad move as it meant more nut jobs out on the street even harder to contain than if they were in a ground where the police are able to box them in more.

No they shouldn't. But the fact of the matter is, it was West Ham v Millwall and there was bound to be trouble. If you took your wife and kid on the basis that you SHOULD be able to then you are fucking stupid. If you have a family then your first responsibility is to them and the REALITY of the situation not what SHOULD happen.

I have only ever worn colours to a very small percentage of away games and have always been amazed when I have been to, say, Oxford and seen blokes with young kids (Town fans that is) all shirted and scarved up. It's just asking for trouble. Again, yes he SHOULD be able to do that but in REALITY, he is risking him or his kid getting twatted. It's not right, but saying "Ooooh, I SHOULD have been able to take my kid to the game with our colours on" is not going to help you when your at A+E having 10 stitches put in you forehead.

These two teams would have played each other in the Championship a few years ago (right?) and I dont remember anything like this happening in those 2 games (right?) so surely that proves that it can be policed properly and effectivly right?

So what the fuck went wrong last night. I cant see why a Carling Cup 2nd round game would suddenly be more, whats the word meh I cant think of it....intense than the league games a few years back?

I agree in part, although it seems there were quite a few involved in the trouble who already have banning orders, so wouldn't have been able to get tickets anyway.

They played in the cup in 2005, not sure about the league though? I have no idea what was different then and now.

04/05 season they were both in the Championship.

This has to be the only pitch invasion anybody would want to see at Upton Park..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyYgg56BUBE&feature=fvw

Totally agree with you.  My son doesn't like football but if he did at 10yrs old i would be very selective on which away games i took him to let alone something like west ham millwall fixture!

The difference is that it is mainly Season ticket Holders when playing in the league and the game will be played at 11:30 in the morning. Last night tickets were open to anybody right up until 5pm last night that coupled with drinking all day and hey presto you have a riot on your hands especially when the Millwall mob takeover a hammers pub in the early afternoon.

I can't be the only one that would have liked to have been in the ground last night?

Not near any of the action of course, and preferabbly with 2 burly bouncers by my side, but just to experience something like that would be ace

I imagine thousands went and sat safely elsewhere to watch the mayhem.

Sorry, but how do you know this?

Missed most of this, but did catch a bit of the media outrage (whilst dedicating several hours/pages of coverage to it). How does this one rank with Spurs in Seville, and Man United in Rome?

Him and his son shouldn't cross the M4.

Sorry Sam i don't agree totally with that.Everybody knew that would kick off last night and whether it should not have happened or not to take your kids to that game is fucking stupid.

Spot on. Too many people these days seem to abandon all common sense in the face of "someone should have done something". Wouldn't dream of taking my lads to a game like that

My dad never used to take me to games where such events were likely. Not that he'd have been fighting or anything,

i took my lad to poxford,city,etc when he was 4.bad dad me

I don't think so... My dad is a bit of a wussy.

Not necessarily, but would you have been ringing 5Live in shocked outrage if it had all kicked off around you and left your son a bit upset? Because there was 3 or 4 twonks who did that last night and seemed amazed that West Ham v Millwall had turned out a bit lively. Like I said, some of these need to take some responsibility.

Bet you didn't do this though:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8222700.stm

Yes, and those that listened could have also caught the WHU steward ringing in saying that they were gloriously understaffed and brought in Stewarding from Millwall who stood by.

Not casting judgment at all, more playing Devils Advocate really

haha.good lad

Sure, it sounds like either West Ham or the coppers or both badly misjudged the potential for trouble, but I still don't think it takes some kind of super-parenting sense to work out that that's not a great game to be taking young kids to.

Someone on facebook has just pointed out that the release of The Firm in a few weeks may be bad timing. I had no idea they'd made a film based on the original.

It amused me last night when you had Sky Sports News treating it in the serious "think of the children" way that they were and then going to the adverts which promoted The Firm.

Haha brilliant!

A terrible throwback to when football was cheap and exciting.

Doubt anything will top Julian Dicks on Radio 5 tonight explaining there's a history of bad blood between West Ham and Millwall (because we needed his special inside knowledge to tell us that) then going on to say "I mean you only have to watch Green Street to see how much they hate each other". Wonder if he thinks EastEnders is a documentary

I would like to thank the fans of West Ham and Millwall for trying to settle one of footballs biggest arguments.

However, even after Tuesday night it is still hard to say which teams supporters are the biggest cunts.

I did notice a comment on a Youtube video yesterday which made me giggle. Something along the lines of "Call that a riot? Where's the petrol bombs? Come to Belfast, we'll show you a real riot you f**king pussies".

He's got a point.

I don't think I've actually seen any punches thrown in any of the footage I've seen.

Plenty of gesturing and shoving but no actuall fighting.

I've no doubt it happend (see stab victim) but the way SSN were going on about a few shirters running on the pitch is embarassing.

The media love to sensationalize this sort of thing. The footage shown on tv to me is just a pitch invasion.

Was there actual fighting in the stadium? What happened outside?

The media really don't help when stuff like this happens. Whilst its obviously not good they blow it out of proportion and always fail to put it in to perspective with the problems they have in other countries - they have it far worse in Germany and Italy.

Its the same with FIFA and UEFA, if the shit that happens in other countries happened here they'd be banning us again yet they seldom take any action against other countries. We're still tainted with the problems we had in the past which we have now pretty much put behind us.

the police should have just got out of the way at the queens pub. What was the point in seperating them? They should have just let them beat the shit out of each other.

The media love pitch invasions. Its something they can show again and again and again. Guaranteed viewers.

To be fair, this could damage our bid for the 2089 Womens World Cup.

I love pitch invasions too.

My personal favourite piece of coverage from Tuesday night's event was the ageing fat skinhead waddling across the pitch.

And no, it wasn't Julian Dicks.

Thaught that was Ashton.

   
   I would very much doubt it since there isn't one in 2089. Perhaps you meant 2087 or 2091 ? An easy mistake to make !

Yeah there was blatantly loads of West Ham vs. Millwall fighting. Running battles for hours and that. But the TV cameras didn't get footage of it. They've got some shots of the police lines trying to contain people inside and outside the ground but none of the lads fighting each other. And they repeat the same interview of the shopkeeper saying his windows got broken.

This is probably for two reasons. Firstly, they weren't in the know as to what was going on where and secondly, the camera men didn't feel it was safe to be running around on street level (notice the guy filming in that Sky footage from outside the pub was on a roof and he said even then he was shitting it).

This is blatantly the most football violence surrounding a football match in years and years (can't think of more since the '80s...). It is totally amazing there were only 10 arrests on the night!!! Half those were probably for pitch invasion anyway. I can only think it was one of those riot type situations where the police are all kitted up and more interested in trying to keep a lid on things than nicking people.

Chelsea v Millwall 1994 was bad.

I think part of me was surprised by how many West Ham were so up for it.

As far as Millwall are concerned the hooligan thing has never gone away but West Ham have been in the premiership for so much of the recent past where it seems there is far less trouble and a higher priced more sit down family friendly kind of vibe.

I think the police try to keep out of it unless they really have to step in and instead record all of the action on camera. Then afterwards they sit down and identify all the people breaking the law and go after them. A lot better than wading in at the time and risking having it blow up big style. I'd imagine we'll be seeing a lot of arrests and banning orders over the coming weeks as they track down the perpetuators.

I think so too but if the footage ain't too clear and for example the person is wearing a cap then what they look for is the same clothes as they were wearing. If they don't find those then it can be harder to bring charges.

At least that's what I heard happened in relation to a Swindon game in recent years. Think it was a Rovers game.

If police go bounding in it just aggravates the situation. How many times do power hungry stewards cause tensions to boil over at matches?

Good to see Nathan Tyson inciting the Derby fans yesterday.

Quality.

Yeah latest example was Gillingham. A block on town fans wanted to stand. They were miles away from the home supporters and they weren't obstructing the aisles. The stewards pissed off the town fans and the police got involved over something that in pracitcal terms was a complete non-issue.  ::)

It was a slight at Savage waving a scarf after Derby beat Forest at the City Ground.

Derby team were well out of order. It's Forest's ground and they are entitled to celebrate a good home win with their supporters, even if that means taking the piss a bit.

He did it to the derby fans though

see 6 swindon supporters got arrested on thursday for violence at the octagon after rovers at home last season

Doesnt matter, you go away, you are on their patch.

Ive seen the footage, and there is only a problem when the Derby players get involved and push the melee towards their fans.

Players should be doing this every week. Why cant Tyson wave a Forest flag at the City ground? The interaction between fans and players is so sanitised now.

I agree with you there Spencer. I thought it was brilliant.

Give them some shit back, you know what i mean?

I very much doubt that Derby fans were waiting in the car park for Tyson after the game.

Rivalries are great, for 90 minutes every little thing sparks a reaction, then you go home - bemoan the loss - get stick at work and then look forward to getting revenge in the reverse fixture.

...and for Robbie Savage to be the one to complain about Tyson's actions... Ha!

Really?! They waited a long time to do that!

I mght be in a minority viewpoint here but I hope they don't get found guilty and banned.

I do. Justice

If you've got 2 consenting groups of lads willing to go at each other then let them. There is absolutely nothnig wrong with it as long as some basic rules are observed. Town in the 70s and 80s were some of the best self governed nutters in the country. They certainly sorted out those who got out of line.
If Rovers and Town were game then let them at it. Darwinism will sort it all out.

Football is a game of passion,so why couldn't Tyson celebrate on the pitch with his manager and
other Forest players?

Could you imagine the reaction at the CG if Scott Murray or Beauchamp had done the same thing
infront of the Town End or Don Rogers Stand? It would have caused a riot and we would all of
reacted to it.

Although this video isn't the best it clearly shows Tyson running accross from the middle of the
pitch to get the flag from one of the groundstaff.No problem with him celebrating with the Forest
fans,but why oh why does he have to do what he then does, after the week we've just had.
It's about time players learnt to act responsibly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLJDKND8YG8

fuck i wish tyson played for us. thats fucking ace.

I assume your talking about the notorious Inn on the Green incident in April 2007.  Subsequent to that game, there were arrests and successful prosecutions.

Did anyone see the rochdale bury game? Rochdale blokey scored and tried to antogonise the bury fans. A few bury fans got onto the pitch and he shit himself!

Tyson is adequate distance from the crowd, it's not a massive difference from putting your hand over your ear or doing the "shhh" when you score in front of opposition fans.

The guy is also moving at a reasonable pace so he'd have been past the Derby fans if Bywater and company wouldn't stopped him.

The Bury incident was hilarious but 1) the Rochdale player clearly got worried and 2) some of the Bury fans were clearly in two minds on what to do.

Because they were so thick they boasted about it on facebook!

Tyson did it at the City Ground, not pride park! At home, that was my point.

Remember, Forest have fans on the upper tier of that stand to the right hand side there! He cant celebrate with them? Good on him.

If Beauchump or Murray had done it at the Manor, or Ashton Gate then I would probably have been half way out of the exit gate anyway. If they had done it at the County Ground, then yes that is out of order. You go away, you are on their patch. If you cant hack seeing an opposition player waving a scarf or a flag at their home ground THEN DONT GO AWAY!

It's the Derby players who should act responsibly.

Players are still paid for by the fans, and the fans dont get a lot of recognition from the players nowadays. Because of the TV money comming in from abroad there seems to be a prevailing culture among some top flight players that the fans in the ground dont matter at all.

As for 'the week weve had'. Millwall West Ham has nothing to do with it. Football moves on.

The whole point is that you celebrate with your fans,no need to goad or antagonise opposition fans.
It's provocative,especially when it's a local game.Just because Forest were on "their patch" doesn't
give them any greater rights  whatsoever.Billy Davies didn't go anywhere near the Derby fans.

I have no problems whatsoever if Beckford or Lambert hold a scarf or flag infront of their fans,but
if they decide to come over to us when we visit Elland Rd or St Mary's i would see that as provocative.
As would many other Town fans.

I agree fully that the Derby players should act responsibly,especially their Goalkeeping coach
Martin Taylor who from photos i've seen,went charging in,when Gunter (Forest full back) was
trying to calm things down.

Finally,"the week we've had" refers to the publicity surrounding this game and the West Ham v
Millwall cup tie.It's the culmulative effect that it's had;possible return to the bad old days.

There's a way to win and a way to lose; hold you head up high and be proud of your team.

Well I think it does. Cast your mind back to the Spurs V Tottenham game a couple of years back, that lad ran on the pitch. Chelsea really were over doing the celebrations and taking the piss at White Hart Lane. That was wrong. You should respect your hosts. Its easy to control a few hundred away fans. But you cant really control 4 sides of the pitch. Chelsea were lucky that only a handful of Spurs fans went on the pitch and not 50 or 100.

I get a bit sick of all the scaremongering that occurs every time there is disorder at a game. Yes, this West Ham Millwall game was particularly bad. But football will never go back to the early to mid 1980's where things seriously got out of hand. Its just an impossibility. I also get sick of all the talk about 'will it affect the world cup bid!!!???'. Who cares? We lost the last one because the people doing our bid projected our football as perfection and had an overbearing arrogance about how brilliant we were.

Same with this Tyson thing. No, his behaviour wasnt perfect. But why should football have to be perfect? Derby players basically started on Tyson. That's not on.

I know what you meant but I had to quote it because it made me chuckle.

You bastard. I could have edited that and no one would have known!

Don't worry Spence i fully understood what you meant even without the edit button!  ;D

Incidentally,i fully agree about the World Cup bid,because it'll come down to football
politics and just how much money FIFA think they can make from the tournament.

No one is saying players can't celebrate, they just can't do it in front of opposing fans as its just asking for trouble.

I'm surprised Tyson didn't get booked as its a bookable offence, pretty certain Cox got a card for celebrating a goal in front of the away fans at the Country Ground last season.

I also don't think we'll ever see a return to 'how it was'. There are incidents all over the country which happen each year. I can think of a fair few occassions in the past two seasons Swindon have been involved in some sort of disorder, off the pitch or nearby to the ground.

The West Ham v Millwall one has been well documented due to it being televised, the historic rivalry and of course someone getting stabbed. Is it really any worse than some of those incidents we've seen with Swindon?

Incidents don't happen on the scale that they once did due to various reasons and I can't see a return to that ever happening. The latest incident has been over-cooked and it certainly won't prompt trouble to outbreak at other games any more than it already does.

I dont think the authorities realised some of the future effects of making it illegal for fans to come onto the pitch.

Nowdays to see fans on the pitch is a very powerful media image. When it happens it looks like a complete law and order breakdown.

I reality that is rarely the case, and joyous pitch invasions will always be a part of fan culture.

I'll always remmember the Walsall one years ago. Both sets of fans on the pitch. The only violence was police dogs biting fans.

Leeds, when he scored the equaliser...quality stuff from Coxy, shame about the goalkeeping and defending.

i cant see them making a fortune in south africa somehow..

Or Brazil.

And it has to be said, that Platini's objectives as UEFA boss to make football into more of a sport and less of a business are very admirable.

Yes there are some FIFA corrupt officials out there. Jack Warner is one particular disgrace. But I think England has the most greedy, money obsessed culture in world football. Playing Premier League games in China? You cant get any more greedy than that? We sold our souls a long time ago and have no right to be preachy.

Not sure its fair singling out football or English football, for being solely interested in money.

The NFL is playing regular games in the UK now and there will be more and more in the future, its a question of when and not if the Super Bowl will be played at Wembley. The 2015 rugby World Cup was awarded to England primarily to raise some cash for the IRR. Cricket holds a stupid number of world cups for one day and twenty20 formats and we'll most likely be hosting Pakistan home matches in the near future - money being a major factor.

The big difference with English football and especially the Premier League is that they've mastered making money out of the game to a degree the rest of the world can only dream about. Any complaints from other countries are driven by jealousy more than anything else - the Italians and Spanish would be talking about hosting games in other countries if they thought there would be interest in it. If we don't do it, someone else will.

Yeah, but I didnt say that did I?

We sign teenage players on pro contracts which is banned in most European countries. So there are real grievances from other countries. It's where Macheda and Fabregas have come from.

As regards Cricket, that is a very different situation. As for NFL and rugby? Who cares?

Nah not that one it was a different game.