Homophobia in football

[Arriba]

i reckon gay footballers are few and far between.

[Doore]

That's your opinion, not a fact. Some normal, well-adjusted and well-rounded people believe homoexuality to be a disease or brain damage of some sort.

That is also an opinion.

Of course its an opinion, and everyone has theirs.  Not all opinions are equally valid though.   If I said that all people who eat grapes should be shot, I would need to defend that opinion logically in order to validate it.   There is no firm (or even flimsy) evidence that homosexuality is in any way linked to either a disease or brain damage - and that's certainly not for a want of people trying to prove exactly that.

[Nemo]

I'd suggest it's probably a lower amount than in the general population, just as certain environments have a much higher concentration, but the general belief from Gay Rights groups is that it's at least 12 in the Premiership. It's tricky, because you can't force people to come out, particularly when they see the treatment meted out to Sol Campbell and Graeme Le Saux, who aren't actually gay at al, but a few high profile people would make a huge difference to the younger guys.

[jayohaitchenn]

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/comingoutadvice/a/Causes.htm

What Twin Studies Tell us about Homosexuality
Scientists have studied twins to try and learn if being gay is biologically determined. Studies of identical and fraternal twins suggest that there is a genetic influence on sexual orientation. If being gay were strictly genetic, then in identical twins, there would be a 100% concordance rate for sexual orientation. But one study in 1995 found a 52% correlation for male identical twins and 22% for male fraternal twins. A study on females came up with similar results. If one identical twin was a lesbian, in 48% of cases, the other twin was also a lesbian. For fraternal twins, the concordance was 16%. (source Simon LeVay
These studies show that people with the same genetic make up (identical twins) are more likely to share sexual orientation than those with different genetic make up (fraternal twins.) Genetics alone cannot cause sexual orientation, but they do play a part.

Is there a gay gene?
Scientists have not been able to conclude that there is any gene or combination of genes that will make someone gay. Genetics is very complex and scientists continue to study both humans and animals chromosomes for linkage to sexual orientation.

[jayohaitchenn]

And another bit that sounds remarkably similar to brain damage...

What about the gay brain study?
A widely publicized study in 1999 found that a certain part of the hypothalamus was smaller in gay men then in heterosexual men. This study was widely touted at the time as “proof” that one’s sexual orientation is biological and not chosen. But it is not known whether these differences in brain are present at birth or if they occur over a lifetime.

[sonicyouth]

as i recall, the hypothalamus has little to do with personality...

[Doore]

I didn't say that homosexuality was strictly genetic.  All the best research has been completely inconclusive as to the reasons that people are gay.  Consider the social argument though:

Why would anyone choose to be something that could cause them to be scorned by society, rejected by their families, deny them rights and subject them to possible violent hate crimes?

(That's from the same web link as you posted - you can validate any argument with a bit of selective copy and pasting, eh?)


 The main issue here is whether people consider it to be "wrong" or "perverse" - which I guess you may subscribe to if you keep to the "brain damage or disease" line.  I contend that there is nothing wrong with being homosexual.  Homosexual behaviour has also been observed widely throughout the animal kingdom (and in the film Gladiator, but that's by the by...) taking away the argument of human critical awareness as a factor.

[Spy]

This thread has gotten good.

Plus it has basically already proved the point that football is homophobic.

[jayohaitchenn]

I didn't say that homosexuality was strictly genetic.  All the best research has been completely inconclusive as to the reasons that people are gay.  Consider the social argument though:

Why would anyone choose to be something that could cause them to be scorned by society, rejected by their families, deny them rights and subject them to possible violent hate crimes?

(That's from the same web link as you posted - you can validate any argument with a bit of selective copy and pasting, eh?)


 The main issue here is whether people consider it to be "wrong" or "perverse" - which I guess you may subscribe to if you keep to the "brain damage or disease" line.  I contend that there is nothing wrong with being homosexual.  Homosexual behaviour has also been observed widely throughout the animal kingdom (and in the film Gladiator, but that's by the by...) taking away the argument of human critical awareness as a factor.

I haven't stated my opinion on homosexuality, just playing devil's advocate. And to answer the question of why someone would choose... some people like being the centre of attention. Even if that attention is negative. And then there's the social aspect of it, it's not like openly gay people are outcasts is it? There is a thriving gay community, in this country at least, I suppose that would bring about a sense of belonging and friendship that counteracts the negative parts.

[sheepshagger]

Why would anyone choose to be something that could cause them to be scorned by society, rejected by their families, deny them rights and subject them to possible violent hate crimes?

Could it just be that they like the thought of a willy up their bum ?

People make choices in ALL parts of life - why should whether you are gay or not be any different ?

I choose to be straight - I'm not sure I was born straight or gay - but I don't fancy a willy up my bum - so I choose to be straight....

Surely in exactly the same way that a gay bloke chooses to be gay ?

[Doore]

I haven't stated my opinion on homosexuality, just playing devil's advocate. And to answer the question of why someone would choose... some people like being the centre of attention. Even if that attention is negative. And then there's the social aspect of it, it's not like openly gay people are outcasts is it? There is a thriving gay community, in this country at least, I suppose that would bring about a sense of belonging and friendship that counteracts the negative parts.

I see what you are saying, but although I recognise that there is a thriving gay community, the fact that is is seen as a separate community by the "mainstream" actually highlights the fact that most openly gay people are, in many arenas (football being one of them), social outcasts - which to me seems deeply unfair and wrong.

[jayohaitchenn]

You pays your money, you makes your choice

[Doore]

Could it just be that they like the thought of a willy up their bum ?

People make choices in ALL parts of life - why should whether you are gay or not be any different ?

I choose to be straight - I'm not sure I was born straight or gay - but I don't fancy a willy up my bum - so I choose to be straight....

Surely in exactly the same way that a gay bloke chooses to be gay ?

What you haven't chosen is the fact that you don't "fancy a willy up you bum" - even within your own argument this part seems to be instinctive, therefore you are straight - what if your instinct was the opposite?  To put it crudely, what if, instinctively, the thought of another blokes appendage excited you, and the thought of a pair of knockers disgusted you?  Again, there would be little choice - the logical extend of this instinct would be to be gay.

[LucienSanchez]

Didn't a former Wales rugby player come out recently?

[Doore]

Didn't a former Wales rugby player come out recently?

Yes - Gareth Thomas.  He said that he didn't feel he could come out until he was already a well established player - he couldn't have done it as an up and coming player for fear of his career.