Gartside.

[pauld]

Don't UEFA and FIFA really frown upon governments getting involved in the running of sport leagues? I thought greece got in trouble for something like that a few years ago?

Yes, but that was because the Greek government was trying to gerrymander the actual running of the Greek FA IIRC. And given that FIFA/UEFA look even more askance at the Prem than we do, they may well be inclined to regard any such "Oi, Gartside, Nooooooo!" intervention by the government as being in the better interests of the game. Just don't see any government having the bollocks to do it.

[Ardiles]

Anyone have an idea of what Gartside's criteria are for promotion to the second tier are?  Would they be insisting on a minimum average attendance the previous season, for example?  Just wondering how high these hurdles are going to be set.

[jonny72]

Don't UEFA and FIFA really frown upon governments getting involved in the running of sport leagues? I thought greece got in trouble for something like that a few years ago?

As pauld said, its a matter of degrees. FIFA have suspended numerous national FA's due to too much involvement from their government - a government enforcing its own people in to positions of power is normally an instant suspension for example and FIFA don't fuck about with it either.

To be fair to FIFA I don't think they get anywhere near enough credit for keeping politics out of football. If we had a repeat in football of the Zimbabwe cricket debacle with the level of interference from our government in it, I reckon we'd be suspended from international football on the spot. Politics have no place in sport but unfortunately FIFA are about the only governing body that enforce it.

But a few statements and gentle persuasion from our government on this subject wouldn't even register at FIFA.

[Barry Scott]

Sadly I don't think many people will notice - the armchair fans and media will all be busy getting themselves over-excited by the "Scottish distraction". And it's not just Bolton - all the mid-tier Prem clubs and "Big Championship clubs" chairmen will be queuing up to justify this if they think it'll save them from following Leeds, Southampton, Norwich down to a place they and most of the media seem to think they should never have ended up. Except for the small matter of not having got the results good enough to keep them up of course

Don't forget though Paul, there's more chairman outside the prem and ccc, than in it. There's also shit loads of fans. I mean you remove the carrot from in front of these clubs and i think they'll be absolute fucking outrage. I expect it will become a very, very, very long drawn out debate, which will take years to conclude and will perhaps eventually be concluded with nothing changing.

The government might be a bunch of overpaid under braincelled pricks, but even they can see that if these clubs are scared of losing money, don't fucking spend it. I mean plenty of clubs do fine without trying to act like the new billionaire boys club.

I hope Gartside gets stabbed.

[pauld]

Anyone have an idea of what Gartside's criteria are for promotion to the second tier are?  Would they be insisting on a minimum average attendance the previous season, for example?  Just wondering how high these hurdles are going to be set.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/nov/06/premier-league-two-division-gartside

This time, Gartside is understood to be more flexible, arguing that relegation could be retained but that clubs should meet standards of size and finance, similar to Uefa's licensing system, if they are to be promoted into the Premier League.

Or "Fuck off Rochdale", in other words

[Langers]

If it ever happens, this wanker will have ruined football and i hope he carks it.

I agree that if this happens football is fucked.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/8353937.stm
Forgetting the promotion / relegation issue for the moment, the plans would result in between 4 and 10 teams being forced out of the Football League in to the Conference. Why should teams lose their place just so Premier League teams can make more money and so two Scottish teams can join our league pyramid? How much compensation would the Premier League pay out to clubs affected by the change (including those relegated as all leagues are re-arranged)?

I agree again and also what about the teams that dont get into Pl1 and 2 then surley they have no more targets to aim for - no more dreams of premiership football.

[Ardiles]

On the plus side, Franchise FC would be completely ####ed.  Winkleman would disappear in a puff of smoke faster than you could stay 'Asda'.

[jonny72]

Or "Fuck off Rochdale", in other words

Having rules to ensure a club is financially sound is fine with me. But obviously it would need to apply to current Premier League clubs as well which would probably be an issue for a number of them, including Bolton no doubt.

I don't see that size has any relevance though, but having ground requirements would be fine as long as it is done to encourage improvement rather than blocking entrance.

[pauld]

Having rules to ensure a club is financially sound is fine with me. But obviously it would need to apply to current Premier League clubs as well which would probably be an issue for a number of them, including Bolton no doubt.

I don't see that size has any relevance though, but having ground requirements would be fine as long as it is done to encourage improvement rather than blocking entrance.

The whole purpose of Gartside's proposals is to ensure the drawbridge stays shut. This would be drafted so as to sound reasonable but actually be wholly about blocking entrance

[Summerof69]

On the plus side, Franchise FC would be completely ####ed.  Winkleman would disappear in a puff of smoke faster than you could stay 'Asda'.

Unfortunately, Gartside could think Wankleman as a 'visionary' (who else could steal a football league club from a community') as they've got a new 25k stadium, even though it's a soulless bowl. He'll rather have them in than Blackpool, Scunny, Plymuff , Peterborough and anyone else with a 'substandard' ground.

[flammableBen]

It's all pretty inevitable in the long run. In a way it would be nice that there's a Gartside (as in someone to blame) and a restructuring event to take our arguments out on. In the long term I can't see England supporting 92 professional league teams.

In a way, it's surprising how well the lower league clubs have survived the axing of shared gate receipts, the Premier League, the monopolization of sky tv and the continuingly growining gulf in income that it's brought along.

Maybe it's better that there are these blatant efforts to cut loose the lower leagues, the fact they come with a proposal means that it's something which clubs can fight against.

Leave football and it's current trends to it's own devices and we'll have the same result anyway, it will just be slow and painful with lots of clubs dying and nothing to unite the ones which gradually drop off the ladder - until it's too late anyway.

Look at the Prem, it's been the same top 4 for about what, 5 years now? And that was only Everton finishing above Liverpool because they'd made a big effort to win the Champions League.

That's going to spread down the leagues as the financial gaps get bigger. It's rare now that you get a team promoted to the prem really making an effort for anything special, obviously because the top4 is closed. That will filter down, Gartside or not. I bet if you do a graph of League One promotion teams finishes in their first season in the chapionship (or from div 2 to div 1, maybe go back to div 3 to div 2), that you'll see a fairly healthy average dip.

Or maybe not.

Who knows, that all seems a bit pessimistic. Apart from maybe that with proposal's like this there's a chance for fans to be united. Apart from Franchise of course, they can fuck off.

I've done the big rambling drinking think again haven't I?

[jonny72]

I just don't agree that the English game is as fucked up as most people seem to think it is, with regards the top 4 clubs and the alleged financial gulfs (which make competing impossible).

Look at Spurs for example. They're currently 4th in the Premier League, have just reported a £33m profit, have spent a lot of money (which they can afford) on players and will soon be moving to a new and expensive stadium (again, which they can afford).

You can look at other clubs as well; Aston Villa and Everton being excellent examples.

I've said it before but I'll say it again in case anyone missed it. The biggest problem with the English game is far too many clubs spending money which they don't have and this needs to be addressed before we even think about other changes related to finances.

[LucienSanchez]

On the Old Firm issue, as well as stopping them joining, can we take it one step further and throw out Cardiff and Swansea (go on then, and Wrexham).

[pauld]

I just don't agree that the English game is as fucked up as most people seem to think it is, with regards the top 4 clubs and the alleged financial gulfs (which make competing impossible).

Look at Spurs for example. They're currently 4th in the Premier League, have just reported a £33m profit, have spent a lot of money (which they can afford) on players and will soon be moving to a new and expensive stadium (again, which they can afford).

Spurs are a really bad example in that they're far from typical - it's no coincidence that as well as the financial success you cite, they're also one of the most expensive clubs in the country to watch. They've racked their prices right up but they can get away with it in a way that, say, Blackburn, Bolton, Charlton (when they were in the top flight) and we (if we were ever to get there) simply wouldn't get away with. Because they're a "glamorous" and "fashionable" club who can afford to price out their old fans because they know they'll pick up better heeled replacements from the "new fans" in what is a very affluent catchment area.

You can look at other clubs as well; Aston Villa and Everton being excellent examples

Villa are being bankrolled by a billionaire sugar daddy and Everton are more or less bust - Kenwright's desparate to get out, he's on record as saying as a mere multi-millionaire he just can't compete with the billionaires.

In any case you're tilting at the wrong windmill really - where Gartside's proposals are aimed at and what I think most of us are concerned about is the massive gulf between the Premiership and the Football League. Which is causing clubs to break themselves to get up or to stay up. There's a reason why the pundits soil themselves every May about the Championship play-off final - "The richest single game in world sport" - worth £60m to the club that wins it, we're constantly told. But that huge amount needs to be committed in the first season almost entirely into the playing squad. And still newly promoted clubs struggle to attract the kinds of players that will allow them to compete. Why would the kind of average to middling player that fills out most Premiership squads go to newly promoted and widely reckoned to be likely to struggle Burnley for example, when he can rake in 30-40 grand a week at Bolton? Who'll spend that kind of money on frankly fairly mediocre players because they're shit scared of going down. Because if you remove that 30-40m golden teat, then all of a sudden they've got a squad of overpaid mediocrities on massive salaries with long contracts (and they all do have long contracts because otherwise you can't compete to attract even the mediocre players). And if you don't go straight back up in the first season, it could break you completely.

[pauld]

On the Old Firm issue, as well as stopping them joining, can we take it one step further and throw out Cardiff and Swansea (go on then, and Wrexham).

And the Brizzles. They're pretty much Welsh