Thetownend.com

The boys' 'crime' - breaking religious laws by watching football - was read out on a loudspeaker before their executions. 

Isn't it about time religion was banned or something? Utterly ridiculous pie in the sky nonsense which causes more heartache and pain than it does good.

Sorry for those on here that are big into their faith but I just can't get my head around the whole concept of religion in this day and age.

It's not about religion - it's about power.

Always has been, always will be.

Its got bugger all to do with religion, nutters are nutters and if they didn't have religion to align themselves with they would have something else.

Their doctrine specifically tells them to kill. Thankfully, though, the vast majority of Muslims cherry pick and don't follow the horrific stuff.

To say that it is not about religion is just plain false. Many of these characters are willing to kill themselves because they believe in 72 virgins and what not.

Yeah should probably be moved to a separate topic really!

Hold on.

This is true...


But so is this...


There will always be angry, disenfranchised young men. And there will always be people willing to manipulate them for their own agendas, whether through religious or secular political ideology.

Indeed. It does take somebody of a certain predisposition to follow the more violent interpretations of of doctrine. Other factors such as culture and education also have an impact. The abrahamic religions are all quite similar to each other yet you don't find many Christians in the west killing people for picking up sticks on a Sunday, for example. (Although there's still rather a lot of persecution of gays etc).

Muslims tend to grow up in an environment where their doctrine is preached literally and they are not allowed to question (whereas most religions people can apply allegory). In 13 Islamic states penalty for apostasy is death and this is widely supported by the population. When bought up to believe that it is right to kill people for not believing in a religion then that is bound to fuck with people's moral benchmark. The nutters that go about killing people actually believe that they are doing the right thing.

Of course culture and education play a big part. The fact that these people believe that randomly butchering people to death is LESS of a sin than blasphemy, is just downright lunacy (in my eyes). Also, isn't education banned in some places (certainly for women), so that only the Quorn is taught?

My stock response to those who believe that living in an Islamist country is best is

Then fuck off and go live in one

Whatever is going on now isn't going to stop or go away so you've got to think what the logical conclusion will be when it comes to non-Muslim countries

Think so, not sure exactly. Either way I wouldn't much like to teach evolution in a strict islamic state.

I don't know about teaching the Quorn though. I don't see much harm in teaching people about foodstuffs  ;D

Veggie stock, in Bob's world.

Linda McCartney is the latest Profit Mohamed isn't she?

Think this is spot on.

Id go further though as it appears the majority of religious people across the board cherry pick the bits that can justify,in their minds their beliefs.
Continually changes as it becomes increasingly ridiculous to the rest of us.

I'd be careful not to dismiss the views of people with religious convictions quite so readily.  There are a lot of folk out there (better read than I am) who argue that current scientific thinking does not preclude the existence of a higher being or of intelligent design.

Science is very good at predicting phenomena in the world we live in and back in time, right up to a few nano-seconds after the Big Bang.  But science is completely useless at predicting what happened during the Big Bang itself, because the laws of science as they are currently known break down before that point.  And science is even less useful still in predicting phenomena before the Big Bang, or answering the question: 'What started the Big Bang in the first place?'

So unless you know the answer yourself - and I'd guess that, like everyone else, you don't - is it not reasonable to conclude that there is at least some possibility that the whole process that led to the creation of the universe was kicked off by a force or a being that we cannot understand?  If you agree with that, then you have to accept that the concept of religion may not be quite as 'ridiculous' as you had supposed.

^^ http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

There's a difference between 'religion' and 'god'. While we can't completely dismiss the possibility of some sort of creator, we can still recognise that religion itself is ridiculous. At least the vast majority of them certainly are as they can't all be right (although they can all be wrong)

If there is such a thing as a god I reckon he'd be looking down upon the religious and shaking his head in dismay.

You know your logical fallacies then.  ;D

I just can't believe in a diety - mainly because if there is, why would 'it' bother creating us - what's the point.

I do, however, believe in some sort of heaven. I think everyone has their own individual heaven (or hell). I don't see us floating around bumping into George Washington or Deirdre from Corrie.

I think heaven/hell is purely fiction. That doesn't mean that there isn't some kind of afterlife though. 'The afterlife', if there is such a thing, could just be part of science and nature. No God needed.

This is exactly how I feel about it all, although eternity is a long time to spend in the wrong place ;)

A hint of Pascal's wager there, JJ  ;)

There's no god, there's no afterlife; I am as certain about that as I am anything. You have one life, live it.

And there you have it.  You may well be (are most probably are) right about that but, until we exit this life, none of us will know for absolute certainty.  And that's what drives a lot of religions ie creating and building on the fear of the unknown and 'persuading' people to follow certain 'rules' in the belief that they MAY one day have to face the day of reckoning... :hmmm:

Maybe the extremists have it right - "god' is a cunt who doesn't give a fuck.

However to me, the powerful use the brainwashed and/or mentally retarded for various forms of personal profit.

That's the extremists, and the church in general until relatively recent times.
-
Now lets take today's mainstream religions.

What kind of idiot prophet would be so powerful and wise that he thinks its OK for people to be killed for simply drawing an image of him.

What kind of idiot god would allow death, suffering and famine in this world.

Buddha seems OK though. Unless you live in a country that jails people for advertising a club by producing a poster of him wearing headphones.

Agree with a lot of that.  Except for the assertion that religion, per se, is ridiculous.  Personally, I think that dismissing it with certainty is ridiculous.  Belief in a higher being is, in my view, not remotely ridiculous...but the interpretation that a lot of religions/people have applied certainly is.  There's a lot about religion that I do not like - bigotry and intolerance being just two examples - but I see plenty of that from people with no faith as well.

I think you're still not differentiating between 'religion' and 'god'  :).

I think you're more defending deism..... The belief in a god, but not in religion. Einstein was a deist, and a pantheist (he believed that the universe is god).

Rightly or wrongly, I'm defining religion as the veneration of your creator.  If believing in the existence of a god is reasonable, it's not much of a leap to suppose that paying him/her a bit of respect (ie the religion bit) is also OK?

I'm labouring the point, I know.  Just rallying a little against a tendency of some to belittle and patronise the concept of religion and those who adhere to one, in the certainty of their own correctness...as backed up by a few GCSEs in Science.  Just trying to make the point that there is no certainty, and that basis for the condescending/patronising comments is not as rock solid as people might think.

Thanks for the lecture ardiles  ;)
Nowhere for me to go with this really as I've said my piece regarding religion umpteen times on here.
I find them all utterly ridiculous along with the afterlife etc. Not meant to belittle or offend, its just my take on it.

A lot of people believe in astrology. Is it wrong to say that that's ridiculous?

Sorry.  Was a bit preachy, wasn't it.  Didn't mean to be.

It's a debate, you tool. You're supposed to say what you think. If nobody said what they think then we had might as well just close the thread now.

I was joking as you thanked me for lecturing you recently, ardiles.

You say what you like. All good innit

:D

Not at all. It is ridiculous. It's stupid. It has absolutely no substance whatsoever.

The one thing that is getting to me at the moment is the fact that many atheists seems to be becoming more obsessed by proving religion doesn't exist than religious types are - I do wonder whether through the natural development of such mantras we will see further direct action by atheists in 100 years times to prove their point.

I am not religious, if I had to describe myself I would say I am agnostic for the simple fact that I have never given it much thought, frankly I have more important things to think about - however Mrs Horlock is catholic (believing but non practicing).

We have friends who are fiercely atheist and its often all they seem to be obsessed by, for instance me and the wife never ever talk about religion, however whenever we are with friends it always comes up.

(http://shadesofnoir.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/astrology-610x466.jpg?w=614)

I'm Libran.

There's no doubt that religion exists.  (I'm atheist)

there;s a difference between 'religion' and 'belief in a deity'

I wasn't going to contribute to this thread as these debates never end in sunshine and rainbows, but that pretty much reflects my views exactly (although the mrs is CoE).

Live and let live. If anyone is trying to inflict their views on someone else then deal with them using the law.

I'm a firm believer in evidence. Haven't seen any to date.

Fully agree with this. I have a friend who's wife is unfortunately seriously ill, terminal. Their faith has been a great help and I see no harm in this at all.

Many atheists seem to enjoy in being almost militant in their opposition to religion and I don't think that's on.

Extremism in any walk of life isn't good, but I see no problem in people living a religious life if that's what they choose.

Slightly different slant on the debate I know, but I think the current Pope is a bit of a breath of fresh air.

People should not force their beliefs on anyone, whether they are religious or not. I don't care what people believe in, until that belief starts to spiral into the type of problems we see today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0tQHdeC8I4

The whole live and let live thing is a tricky one for me because I see religion as a primarily destructive force. But that doesn't mean I don't see it as a potential for good in some people, nor does it mean I think all religious people are bad/and or idiots.

It's still deeply routed in fallacy, though, and the whole "well it helps some people" seems stooped in danger. Is it a good idea to believe in anything, regardless of the truth, if it makes you happy? Fundamentally, I think, no. And the fact that it causes so much suffering too seals the deal.

I just can't tolerate it. All religion that is.

I cannot believe that we pander and even contemplate entering into any meaningful debate about Islam or any other religion for that matter.

It's such utter crud, we should be bollocking people for actually taking religion so seriously. There is no excuse for it in this day and age.

I don't want to offend anyone but if i do, i hope you take a good look at yourself and what you actually believe in. Open your eyes and actually try and take on board logic and reason. If not, believe in what you want but keep it out of the public domain and out of the law.

The atheists I've encountered over the years tend to be far more annoyingly vocal about their beliefs than any religious person I've ever met.

In my experience, of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsef5okgNzk

The great Marc Maron has a good bit which I can relate to...

https://vid.me/3QC

(http://i.imgur.com/WgPGrKt.jpg)

I'm actually taking the time to learn Arabic, with the aim of learning the Quran off by heart, then becoming a famous respectable Muslim Cleric, just so I can issue a big fuck off Fatwa on the lot of you.

I think he's just on a PR mission.

Important part of the brain. Prefrontal Cortex. ( Its basically the bit behind your forehead / cranium )

"The most typical psychological term for functions carried out by the prefrontal cortex area is executive function. Executive function relates to abilities to differentiate among conflicting thoughts, determine good and bad, better and best, same and different, future consequences of current activities, working toward a defined goal, prediction of outcomes, expectation based on actions, and social “control” (the ability to suppress urges that, if not suppressed, could lead to socially-unacceptable outcomes). "

So if you pray 5 times a day and each prayer time you recite 27 supplications ( Prayers / offerings ) that's 135 smacks on the bit of the brain described above, what is the outcome likely to be ?

Just an observation.

Cliff Richard?

He's got a slightly different excuse, being buggered at an early age by Lord Boothby and Ronny and Reggy Kray probably didn't help. Although I have no idea how many times poor little Cliffs head was battered against something whilst those 3 pervs took it in turns hanging out the back of him ............

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30910342

I do think that there is a certain irony that religion has become the bogeyman to many liberal left leaning people - the same who take great pleasure in berating UKIP voters for blaming immigrants 'needing someone to blame for the problems in your lives' - yet religion holds the same position for them!

If religion disappeared tomorrow something would come along and fill the void to give people who are so inclined comfort...

I've not heard of or seen atheist's handing out leaflets, knocking on doors, standing on corners shouting, trying to convert people, blowing themselves up, etc.

The way some of you are going on makes them sound like nutters, when all they really do is dismiss something they don't agree with. Some have stronger opinions than others on God's and religions but doesn't go that far with it do they?

What's causing most divisions in society?  :sherlock:

There are plenty of atheist soup kitchens and non-secular charities in this country.

It's funny how this debate re-emerges about once every 18 months on here - probably more regularly than any other non-footy, one-off discussions.  It doesn't seem to be related specifically to particular outrages carried out supposedly in the name of religion, and it tends to be the 'non-religious' members who start it off.

Most people participating will know that I have something of a background within a faith community.  Increasingly, I am isolated from that community, not because I don't think faith has relevance, but because my own experience tells me that 'the church' is not fit for purpose - at least not that bit with which I have traditionally been associated.  That may change, and I agree that the present Pope is doing much more than a PR exercise (much as that was needed!).

The debate about God or 'not-God' will continue for ever.  The interesting thing is that in the end, it all comes down to Belief, whether atheist, agnostic or 'believer'.  There is nothing so far coming from the scientific context which goes anywhere near proving or disproving anything (or even producing 'evidence').  There are probably as many serious professional scientists who hold religious faith as there are atheists.  And the Dawkins of this world do more damage than good to the atheist case by focussing on the extremes of religious belief rather than engaging with the centreground (where doubt and mystery are perfectly acceptable in both religion and in science).

And whoever said at the beginning of this current discussion that the current problems (and the history) is about the human lust for power rather than any particular sets of beliefs is (in my experience!) on the right road.

It's a good bit though ;)

If you have faith in a Deity, that's your right and as long as that faith doesn't manifest into something that is harmful to others, why should anyone else have a problem with it?
People who twist religious doctrines for their own ends are the problem and a lot of that can be viewed as stemming from socio-economic issues, not religion. Look at The Middle East, how many of that regions problems are as a result of Western foreign policy? Look at Northern Ireland in the 70's & 80's. Religion is merely a hook to use.
It's people, not religion. And it will happen, whether it's done in the name of religion, or Marxism, or nationalism, when people feel they are being treated unfairly.
Everyone should be free to believe what they want; whatever floats your boat, but everyone should also respect others beliefs.

No. I don't have to respect beliefs that I find ridiculous.

What I meant was respect the right of others to believe what they want.

Fair enough.

I started reading the bible recently. It's fucking nuts.

That happened to me when I read the Daily Mail.

And on a lighter note:....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW7607YiBso