Let's Get Political!

[ghanimah]

I know. And I think there are a lot of that kind of ex-pat on the riviera (hi, Ironside ) and the costas that can't string a sentence of the local lingo together but who, without a hint of self-awareness, voted out.

Brexit's had a funny effect on me. I used to come over to the UK regularly for work, friends and football, but increasingly I can't be arsed. My family, my future, my views are more European than British now. While I've stayed deeply engaged with the country I left 30 years ago, I increasingly feel like it's left me, and I find it harder and harder to recognise. Now I find myself laughing at the misfortunes that Brexit's bringing down on everyone's heads.

Still feels strange to be applying for a French passport though.

Brexit though is not about being European but about democracy and always has been.

[Red Frog]

Potential misfortunes potential brilliance

Good to stay optimistic.

[Red Frog]

Brexit though is not about being European but about democracy and always has been.

Indeed. And when democracy means leaving the most important decision since the war to an electorate who had neither the politico-economic education nor the cool exposition of the facts that such a decision required, it showed just where the limits of democracy lie. As is about to be confirmed in America.

The 21st century version of democracy is way over-rated. It's the rule of the uninformed.

[herthab]

Indeed. And when democracy means leaving the most important decision since the war to an electorate who had neither the politico-economic education nor the cool exposition of the facts that such a decision required, it showed just where the limits of democracy lie. As is about to be confirmed in America.

The 21st century version of democracy is way over-rated. It's the rule of the uninformed.

Totally agree with this: we elect parliament to act on our behalf, as they should be better informed on issues than the majority of us. The government then abdicate responsibility for one of the biggest issues in recent history, instead putting it into the hands of the ignorant, ill-informed public (I'm including myself in this).

[Reg Smeeton]

The 21st century version of democracy is way over-rated. It's the rule of the uninformed.

You'd no doubt prefer the rule of the uniformed....France has previous

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

[Red Frog]

You'd no doubt prefer the rule of the uniformed....France has previous

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Yes Reg, I've heard of Vichy France, and you may be surprised to learn that I don't advocate the model. I only appear an apologist for France because your raging francophobia needs counterbalancing. I even have my own personal TEF emoji.

[RobertT]

Indeed. And when democracy means leaving the most important decision since the war to an electorate who had neither the politico-economic education nor the cool exposition of the facts that such a decision required, it showed just where the limits of democracy lie. As is about to be confirmed in America.

The 21st century version of democracy is way over-rated. It's the rule of the uninformed.

I find myself watching far too much Fox News in the run up the final polling day, it's like any banned substance, exceptionally bad for you but you get tremors when you are not on it!

[Reg Smeeton]

Yes Reg, I've heard of Vichy France, and you may be surprised to learn that I don't advocate the model. I only appear an apologist for France because your raging francophobia needs counterbalancing. I even have my own personal TEF emoji.

In fact I'm something of a Francophile, which enables me to see their faults, as well as their good points. Certainly the history of democracy in France could be said to be flawed at best, and fragile at worst

[donkey]

The leave lot should be delighted anyway, because they told us all they didn't vote leave because they're nasty anti-immigrant bigots but because of their high-minded belief in the principle of the sovereignty of the UK parliament, which this judgement upholds, so they'll all be well chuffed with this.

This is great news for the Brexiters. Just what they wanted.

[Ardiles]

I know. And I think there are a lot of that kind of ex-pat on the riviera (hi, Ironside ) and the costas that can't string a sentence of the local lingo together but who, without a hint of self-awareness, voted out.

Brexit's had a funny effect on me. I used to come over to the UK regularly for work, friends and football, but increasingly I can't be arsed. My family, my future, my views are more European than British now. While I've stayed deeply engaged with the country I left 30 years ago, I increasingly feel like it's left me, and I find it harder and harder to recognise. Now I find myself laughing at the misfortunes that Brexit's bringing down on everyone's heads.

Still feels strange to be applying for a French passport though.

That is exactly how I feel.  Remember thinking on the morning of June 24th that, for the first time, I felt like I belonged somewhere else...and the feeling has not shifted in the 4 months since then.

Fed up of hearing Tory twits wank themselves in to a frenzy over blue passports and playing the National Anthem on TV every evening.  (I'm not making this up.  It's in the news today.)  Fed up watching the victorious Leave side acting as if there was a 98% vote in favour of leaving.  There was not.  The margin of victory was slim...and I hope that the ruling today might inject a little balance in to the debate now about how we leave the EU.

[ghanimah]

Indeed. And when democracy means leaving the most important decision since the war to an electorate who had neither the politico-economic education nor the cool exposition of the facts that such a decision required, it showed just where the limits of democracy lie. As is about to be confirmed in America.

The 21st century version of democracy is way over-rated. It's the rule of the uninformed.

Not only is that patronising but do you really think MPs are better informed than us? Wow Just wow. The "power of prestige" rules again. Take this so called debate by MPs in October, it was so ill informed it was hard to know where to start to take the thing apart.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2016-10-12/debates/F327EC64-3777-4D40-A98D-BEC2E11763A2/ParliamentaryScrutinyOfLeavingTheEU

But I guess Boris Johnson knows what he's doing?

[Red Frog]

Not only is that patronising but do you really think MPs are better informed than us? Wow Just wow. The "power of prestige" rules again. Take this so called debate by MPs in October, it was so ill informed it was hard to know where to start to take the thing apart.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2016-10-12/debates/F327EC64-3777-4D40-A98D-BEC2E11763A2/ParliamentaryScrutinyOfLeavingTheEU

But I guess Boris Johnson knows what he's doing?

Ah yes, the mistrust of experts. Yes, I do think that MPs know better than us, at least when they're doing their job properly rather than pandering to populism (like Boris for example). I don't think it's patronising to think that qualified people should be making the most important decisions in their area of specialism.

I'm not sure that your alternative of trusting the maverick anti-establishment figure with a grievance is working that well in the UK, or the US. But it seems I'm in a minority.

[RobertT]

The concept of letting the qualified take on the role of making the decisions is a sound one in theory, with the populous able to bring them into check through democracy when needed.  However, the populous don't exert their control properly - voting based on colours rather than any sense of detail and the Qualified simply aren't half the time.

[Red Frog]

The concept of letting the qualified take on the role of making the decisions is a sound one in theory, with the populous able to bring them into check through democracy when needed.  However, the populous don't exert their control properly - voting based on colours rather than any sense of detail and the Qualified simply aren't half the time.

You wouldn't want to be accused of being patronising, but it's a problem isn't it if the electorate aren't sufficiently qualified - or, more usually, sufficiently engaged - to elect the best candidates on a close examination of their merits. Complacency with democracy surely leads to its erosion.

[RedRag]

The referendum produced a narrow vote to leave the EU.  Nothing more.  So why on earth would any of us, Remainer or Breciteer, have a problem with Parliament and NOT the government deciding what sort of new arrangements we favour?  Also, an English Court deciding on constitutional interpretation rather than Theresa May seems sensible.

Furthermore the Brexiteers cited the examples of Norway, Canada, Switzerland etc to illustrate the non EU alternatives, softening the adverse consequences of a hard Brexit

So let Parliament consider them.  The people have not spoken on this