Thetownend.com

I know the legalities of it, so I'm not interested in that side of things. I'm just gathering opinions.

For example, taking a 14 night holiday that spans half-term plus one week either before or after.

do what you like, they're your kids

You should take the kids out, it's a crazy! Save yourself some cash

One week away from school isnt going to do kids any harm

To avoid a fine, then you have to get the permission of the school....this is very much at the whim of the Head.  The problem for them is that Ofsted takes a great interest in attendance, so deliberate signing off of kids is going to knock this and the school could end up in special measures.  So it really all depends on the state of the school and the outlook of the head....if however the hit of the fine is less than the saving on going out of season, then many people just accept it.

All true.  But also worth noting that, increasingly, heads are taking a much tougher line and authorising time away only in exceptional circumstances (with exceptional circumstances being very tightly defined).

I know all that I was referring to the effect on a kids education.  If one week of a missed education is going to cause any serious problems with a kids learning then the parents should have bigger worries on their plate about the kid.

I understand it's unlikely to be authorised, but we'd certainly let the school know of our intention.

We took the eldest out for a week last October and the school didn't even mention anything at that time, although she was under 5 and therefore the fine couldn't apply.

One week not such a problem, but let's postulate that this happens every year...so Samdy has said the <5 year old has already missed a week....extrapolate that to Y11 and it equates to approx a term.

What about teacher training days? Parents have to rearrange around those. Why don't the teachers have those during holiday times?  :sherlock:

They sort of do, insofar as the mandatory training days were originally taken out of the school holiday allowance.

I don't thing a week either way will hurt.

A neighbour of mine made up a false invite to a family wedding in Italy to take his kids out without paying the fine.

Doesn't exactly send out a great message to the kids about personal conduct and the value of education does it?

We've booked a 5 day stay at Disneyland Paris that includes the last 3 school days before easter half term holiday next year... the difference in price between that and the same days the following week was ridiculous!

As long as you don't take the piss, I think it's fine.

I didn't say I approved just that there are ways around the unfairness

my opinion, the fuss made over taking your kids out of school is overblown bollocks. They aren't going to ruin their future by missing a weeks schooling, particularly the last week of a term. The fines are a good scam, not that the schools have much say in this.

Obviously using common sense - it may not be great for GCSE or right before year 6 SATS*

Its a bugger having a teacher for a wife though, not quite so easy..

* not that SATs mean much, but some secondary schools do use them for initial streaming purposes.

At my school it's kind of at the discretion of the head so if you don't take the piss generally and don't have a ton of days off sick or unauthorised absences then she will authorise holidays.
It's doesn't help the school to have a ton of unauthorised absences.

 To be fair the only unfairness is the rip off prices in term time in comparison.

Its a fucking stupid rule, Im sure i speak for pretty much everyone on here that when we were kids our parents would take us out of school for a week for a holiday and it was perfectly acceptable then.

Not unfair at all, simply supply and demand.

As someone who works in a primary school, Some parents seem to view school as a childminding service whilst they are at work, rather than vital education though?

When are summer holidays out of interest?

I went to florida for 3 weeks when i was at school

FUCK EDUCATION

:D

And you turned out alright!

...

Hmm, in fact, don't do it Sam. S'not worth the risk.

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Maybe so. But for holiday companies to penalise families during school holiday periods does smack of profiteering. I remember during a cheap Sun holiday looking a the price of the exact same caravan during the summer......£1200 per week.....for a caravan in Cornwall.....there has to be a better way to even out costs for all and for holiday companies to still make a reasonable profit, surely?

IMO, depending on where you go, there is educational value in a holiday too.

Now!

Well I meant when do they finish?

We're going on holiday first 2 weeks of September.

Most schools go back 1st Sept

Excellent, thanks.

We went to Florida for 2 weeks over May holiday week and took the kids out of school for the week after.  Oldest son was 8 and youngest 4.  We did have it authorised by the school though, as it was purely down to school discretion then.  It didn't interfere with any assessments or anything and the kids didn't miss anything of major importance.

I wouldn't do it now my oldest is starting at secondary school.

What about us poor fuckers who are on shitter pay than teachers and can't take holidays in term time?!

And yes it's my choice, but there's hardly an influx of jobs..

Its shit for you Sippo, no arguing there.

People may say easier said than done..... I say...fuck 'em. Take your kids on holiday when you want.  I always went on holiday in term time, the only thing it affected was my mate who sat next to me most the time. Hardly fucking damaging is it? You do plenty more "growing up" and a LOT more LEARNING once you've left education.

This is not to say I don't value education, I respected all (most) of my teachers. When I wasn't there, it's simply that. When I was, give a day, everything ran as normal. No dramas, none of this "you're not valuing your education young man" bollocks.

C'est la vie!!

Just saw this on the beeb..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33861985

My stepson spent 6 months out of school, while I tried to find him a place after he came to the UK. Since then, I've encouraged him not to miss a day... He's pretty much a top performer, in his year now, so it didn't do too much damage. He's pretty self-motivated though.

Ok I will bite. That is bolllocks. It is obviously unfair.

Take them out, kids learn so much whilst away. We went on a two week break  to the canaries (not Norwich) this year and seeing the kids mix with dutch and french kids was great. Even on a holiday like that they learn loads. If its more of a cultural holiday then even better.

The fine system is ridiculous. Hopefully our primary school will be reasonable as it'll have an impact on us from next month!

Not for me Chubbs. When I was a kid, you had "Trip", when the Works closed down and everybody went on holiday, this of course coincided with school holidays.

Originally Trip was a week, but by the 50's it was a fortnight, and that was your lot for the year apart a couple of festive bank holidays.

My old man would rather have gone without a holiday, than see me miss time off school, as for his generation education was the key to the future....he'd left school at 14, as more or less all working class kids did.

Think it was JFW, who said too many parents see education now as little more than a babysitting service...

 Just seen this, and noticed that Loobug posted a similar one from the BBC site, either way it seems apposite to the thread.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/aug/12/increase-parents-england-prosecuted-taking-children-out-of-school

meh, if it's possible just say your child is sick for a week ;) then post your holiday photos on Facebook and hope nobody squeals

The best one we had was a girl in my class was "sick" then cake back to school really brown and with her hair all braided!

How? Lots of people want to do the same thing at the same time, so obviously the price goes up. Explain how that is unfair?

What about charging people to go skiing more in December and January than April? Are peak time train fairs unfair (compared to off peak)? Is it unfair to charge people who want to go the gym outside of normal working hours more than those who go off peak?

No - obviously not.

I know you've already highlighted the point of time off accumulating throughout school life, but if it was not regular and when looking at it in isolation, will one week really affect a child's education that much?

Personally I don't think it will have much, if any, affect on my child's learning but I'm sure you have a different view from the other side of the fence.

I said, that one week, will probably not make much difference, and perhaps more especially when they are still relatively tiny.

There are plenty of European countries where they don't even start at school until 6 or 7, which happily end up outscoring England when it comes to achievement at 16.

I don't have children myself, so I'm reluctant to take a definite stance on this issue. However to me this would appear to be a classic case of a sledgehammer to miss a nut. There's a difference between an occassional week off here and there and the need to address perpetual absence.

More so when considering that having measles, mumps or chicken pox often takes children out of school for a week at least. Taking kids on holiday can be an education in themselves.

The only families I know that have been fined were always late , having days off as they "overslept" and missed the transport to school the council pays for and provides for them and just silly unauthorised absences all year so when they then ask for a 2 weeks holiday in term time it doesn't get the green light.

The Mrs works for SBC and used to send out the "penalty notices" for unauthorised school absences.
Its currently £60 per parent for each child.
If not paid in 30 days SBC start court proceedings.

The council become involved after receiving a letter from the school informing of unauthorised absence.

Having said all that, have taken mine out before for the last week where they generally do bugger all anyway.
Rang them in as sick.

Your generation or your Dad's generation were also expected to work with hazardous materials such as Asbestos without protection.   I'm not sure harking back to a bygone time is of any use, the world is different.  Surely the answer is more to worry about your own children.  My first is academic, she'd miss two weeks and be caught up within days - in fact, she'd probably be ahead before leaving.  My second, less so, so we've not taken him out as much as we would have done with the first.  As someone who did well at school, I don't think twice about taking them out when I feel it is ok to do so - I can judge my kids needs much more accurately than the teachers can when having to worry about 30 odd.

A better plan would be to mix-up the holidays a bit anyway, removing the peak demand problem from pricing but also avoiding the issue some parents will face with getting time off as well.

I'm not harking anywhere....Chubbs made the point he suspected that most of the parents of TEF'ers would have taken their kids out of school for a holiday.....I was pointing out I was not one of them.

Indeed the world is different, but many people still work in hazardous conditions....just modern hazards. As we're on the subject of education here....two teachers have been stabbed in Yorkshire  recently, one fatally, one almost. Not something which would have happened when people toiled down coal mines.

Incidentally, Old Etonians like Cameron and Osborne, were used to having 9/10 week summer hols, to fit in with "the season"

The present 6 weeks for the plebs, came about as land owners would only agree to education for kids to 14, if they were free to work during the harvest time, so were granted the time off school.

you're just old Reg :-)

Obviously it is or this wouldn't be a discussion.

Reasonable discussion. It is because it is. How is it unfair?

Its vital that you keep your brats in school, as I don't want to spend my precious time off work surrounded with peoples prodigny shouting n screaming.

What if that's the week where they're taught the difference between effect and affect?

Then they can look forward to a life of not being a grammar nazi

:)

And I'm usually the grammar police.

I was always taught that affect means "to influence" whereas effect means "a result". As my suggestion was that I didn't think a holiday (or rather one week away from school) would influence learning that much, I went with the former.

I'm sorry, Mr Romana.

Apology excepted

I presume you intended, for comic effect, to say excepted instead of accepted.

First rule of Grammar Nazi Club - get things right when calling others out on being wrong.

Yup.  I was hoping for a bite rather than for you to read me so effortlessly.   :)

(http://i.imgur.com/N2FEP.gif)

 Supreme Court have ruled that it is legal for parents to be fined for unauthorised absences. Who'd have thought it....

fucking bullshit decision

As a parent of a grown up child I fully endorse this decision.

Ten years ago & I'm with batch :)

You have to ask the question why do parents want to take their kids out.

Most will say for a cheaper holiday. So, reduce the cost of said holidays.

A childs education comes before any holiday in my opinion.

Depends on the situation, holiday and the age of the child.  There is too much scope for abuse

Until the day comes that schools start taking their training days in the holidays i will take my kids out when i want.

My sons old school used to effectively close down for the last week, the kids could either go on holiday with their class/year, or stay behind and have activity days.

There were lots of families  that used to use that opportunity to go on holiday a week early

And stop announcing "Collapsed timetables" (aka teachers taking the day off to go Christmas shopping) on the last Friday before Christmas with a week's notice, and all the other times we end up having to find childcare in term time because of strikes, report days or whatever other thing it is the school have decided is, apparently, more important than the child's education they get oh so strung up about if parents dare to miss the last two days of term when they're just pissing about anyway.

Of course it is, but as you know, missing the last week of a term in a non-important year makes fuck all difference to that.

"Just a day missed make..." is complete bollocks. My youngest sons school had an unavoidable two day closure due to a  water leak. As they aren't making it up can I sue the LEA for neglect of duty?

Luckily a tactical stomach bug can still be pulled if necessary.
----
The Mrs is a teacher, so we can't actually pull a sickie.

You can plan a holiday, but you can't avoid a water leak.

It doesn't bother me either way, as I would never take the kids out of school.

Look at it this way. There are 180 days in a school year. 95% is the 'good' rate and shouldn't cause concern. This works out at 9 days per year. If you take 5 days off, that leaves 4 for sickness...

A missed days learning is a missed days learning.

Totally agree its not the schools fault. I have no issue with what they did.

But trotting out the "miss one day and your education suffers" line is clearly either bollocks or not that significant. If it was, they'd extend the term (until the unions had a hissy fit).

I can completely sympathise with parents with finite budgets wanting to avoid the grotesque price hikes at half term and holidays.

The thing I struggle with is the self-righteous indignation of people like Jon Platt.  He took his child out for financial reasons and was prepared to live with the impact (however great or small) on the education of his child and the rest of that class.  That's fair enough Mr Platt, but don't try to pretend that you are on a moral crusade against state interference with parent's rights or against school inset days, you're doing it to save money.

I did end up taking both kids out of school for a week last year for a holiday. The school didn't authorise it, but were made aware of the absence and we never got fined. We'll be doing the same again this October.

The impact on their learning? Negligible. Both have consistently good reports and are well regarded by their teachers. I like to think I'm a better judge of my children's education than some council bureaucrat who reads statistics off a screen.

Or change the term times  ::)

In many cases the fines are still less costly than taking kids on holidays during the holiday periods.  We took our daughter out quite a few times, she flew through her GCSE's and I would pay the fine if I felt it was the right thing for our family.  For a Govt so inclined to push personal choice in education, it seems odd to then support such bizarre system.  I would imagine the original intent was to target truancy - the kids who are not getting a good education and whose parents are not invested in supporting that education either.  Now it has clearly become a tax gathering process.

Oddly enough, I'm just about to do the same over here in the USA - we are taking the kids back to the UK for a week over Easter, but the Spring Break was this week (trip planned before we were able to even know which school district they would be in).  The rule over here is simple - don't hit the grades, go back a year and repeat - so the risk is on us.  Fortunately my little one seems to work well under their education system and has made great strides this year, we are also taking much of the work he would be doing in class with us.

It's the school that's flags the absences and fine, not the council.
Once it's passed to the council however the school no longer has any input and all costs fall to the council.
Mrs sends the fines out for council.

The Supreme Court ruling was not about the rights and wrongs of taking holidays in term time...but rather whether it was legally right for authority to take action. This now means it is....

I'd be more than happy if all kids were either in school, or on holiday abroad. Don't really mind which one.

It ruled that a School has the authority to set the limits for what constitutes regular attendance.  It doesn't mean you can never take kids out of school, it merely ratifies the schools ability to determine that a fine is reasonable if a child exceeds the time off that is acceptable in that school.

In many instances this means parents would still be right to challenge fines if say their children missed a few days.  What it does clarify is that taking a 2 week holiday mid term is probably going to get you a fine - but that may still be worth it to parents.  What the parents won't be able to do is avoid paying the fine if evidence shows their child went below the absence threshold.

Nice to see common sense prevailing. There is more than ample opportunity to go away during the generous holidays schools give to children.

Some of the excuses I've read of people whining(in the adver) when they get fined should see their penalties increased.
School's have it hard enough as it is without having to deal with selfish parents.

I don't have kids so probably shouldn't care, but aside from the government dictating when you can do stuff with your child, the fact lots of companies will have parents trying to take time off at similar times has surely got to have knock on issues with the wider economy. And the fact holiday companies are rubbing their hands with glee as they can increase the prices during those periods as much as they want.

I go taken out of school for a family holiday before the end of a summer term once (long before the possibility of a fine).
Preference would have been to see out the term then go on holiday, but as today probably, the ones affected most are not consulted.

Much depends on the nature of the holiday as well, a lot of trips can have an educational benefit over and above the potential loss of a few days of schooling.

Being dragged along to laze by a poolside with mum and dad for a couple of weeks is maybe worthy of a raised eyebrow as far as the school is concerned.

Quite right, they've got enough of a job on their hands trying to educate people that apostrophes are used to indicate possession or elision, not a plural.

Damn. Arriba just got schooled.

No holidays for him.

It was predictive text from my phone which I didn't check but admittedly my English isn't brilliant. If that error makes my point less valid then well done for correcting me.

Not being schooled is the problem i think. I did go to Greendown after all.

Of course it doesn't, don't be so touchy. TBF, I should have added a smiley, but thought it was pretty obvious I was taking the piss.

:)